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Harryurz , 5 March UTC. The first line of "Trial and Life Imprisonment" "Hess was detained by the British for the duration of the war, then was a defendant at the Nuremberg Trials for crimes against peace and given a life sentence. Plus as the war had already started when he was captured he wasn't detained for the duration of it.

I've edited it to something more correctly informative. I wrote this not looged in so I've now logged in and come back to sign it It's plausible to argue, as the first paragraph does, that the very nature of Soviet and Nazi ideologies would bring the USSR and Germany to war, but I don't think there's much of an argument that Stalin, in the forties, was actively trying to 'march west and introduce communism to Germany'.

In any case, this isn't relevant to the Rudolf Hess article but to the Operation Barbarossa one. I think a good route to take in the Hess article would be a writeup saying something along the lines of 'Hess's flight to Britain may have taken the USSR by surprise, provoking fears of an alliance between Nazi Germany and Britain against it. This may have delayed the USSR's response to Operation Barbarossa' -- if that's what the writer of this section is implying, as it seems to me.

It's important, though, that this should be about the immediate results of his flight -- maybe this should be put under a section on 'Consequences of Hess's flight' or something like that. There are definitely people out there who know vastly more about WWII military history than I do, which is why I don't feel I should edit this myself. Sorge is no speculation.

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He was for real. With advance warning of pearl harbor, Stalin was able to shift 40 Siberian divisions in November of and blunt Operation Typhoon and save Moscow. Any World War II buff worth his salt ought to know stuff like this. Read the Richard Sorge article. After that Moscow was too well defended and they went for less defended territories. Put in whatever contra view that you want as long as it resourced and footnoted or cited.

That is what Wikipedia is about. Say "this critic xxxx writing in yyyy says surov is "full of it zzzzz" Take Care! Took out all the refs to Moscow and Hitler. Article is not based on Suvorov but on archive research by Mikhail Ivanovich Meltyukhov. Citations to another WP article is not good. So I have to port over the footnotes from the other article, Stalin's Missed Chance. I"ll do that when I get the chance.

Take Care!

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Anybody know how to make a vandallism report on the pie throwing clown " From the article: "Hess had attempted suicide at least twice before, in at Mytchett Place by flinging himself from a balcony, and in by cutting his wrists with a table knife. He was buried in Wunsiedel, and Spandau was subsequently demolished to prevent its becoming a shrine. However, Albert Speer writes, , in his diary from Spandau translated from my copy in Swedish : "This morning I managed to see Hess. He was laying on the bed with a thick bandage around his wrist.

When I came he looked up tiredly with a wax-yellow face. Yet, he seemed like a child who had managed a surprise.

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Almost excited he began to tell: 'When you were in the garden yesterday and there was no guard nearby I broke my glasses quickly and cut an artery with a shard. For three hours no one noticed anything', he continued almost happily, 'I lay in the bed and was to bleed to death and it was quite nice.

Then I would forever be rid of my pains. I had already become all feeble and comfortable. But then I suddenly heard a noice that seemed to come from far away, it was this disastrous man, the soviet supreme doctor on his round. He saw me lay here and immediately sew together the cut'".

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I figured someone might have an opinion on this, hence why I didn't add it immediately. Feel free to do so yourselves if there are no objections from anyone. I just added a thumb for Rudolf Hess's picture, I thought it might be good to have some consistency because the Hermann Goring article also has a thumb - I didn't realise K-UNIT had taken away the thumb.

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So should the thumb be there or not? Typhoonchaser , 10 September UTC.

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This whole section is an appalling mess, a collection of half-baked arguments and ill-thoughout assumptions. It is speculative in the extreme and simply deserves no place in an article on the life of Rudolph Hess. Anyone who knows anything about military planning and logistics will understand that complex timetables are not to to be altered by sudden small events. The suggestion that Hess' flight to Scotland somehow stopped a Soviet invasion of western Europe totters on the verge of intellectual lunacy. White G, you started a new thread, instead of continuing the discussion. You find it odd that "sudden small events" can alter or delay "complex timetables.

It is called the Butterfly Effect in Chaos Theory. As fasr as speculation, the theory is supported by Molotov's comments and the Soviet archives. Best Wishes. Will , 12 September UTC. Archives are full of false leads, and I would trust the word of Satan before that of Molotov. True intellect demands the ability to sift the truth from falsehood, or to understand what is believable and relevant and what is not.

This section is meretricious, pesudo-scholarly, and atrociously phrased nonsense-butterflies or not. It belongs in the pages of crank history-because that is precisely what it is. I used the word "meretricious" in a court document I filed one time. I thought it just meant adulterous behaviour. Everybody got mad at me. It turned out it meant whorish and promiscous. I had to apologize. I wonder if White Guard knows what all those words he uses so handily mean. Will , 21 September UTC. I would hope that I would never use a word 'so handily', or in any other fashion, without understanding its meaning, as you seem to have done on a past occasion.

I hope the consequences were not too serious. It can indeed mean 'pertaining to prostitutes', though I believe the use in this context is archaic. My meaning was in the mainstream sense of 'superficially attractive' or 'misleadingly plausible', both relevant and applicable to the point made above.

However, I should say that I am British and have been brought up in the British use of the English language.

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I assume the same contemporary meaning is to be found in American dictionaries, though I am not sure. Are you American? Why not have a look? I see White Guard, there is a secondary meaning to "meretricious.

The Rankin/Bass Christmas Special and its sequels provide examples of:

Thanks for reminding me about the "British" stuff, I have to dash off an email to my English nephew, the 22nd is his b'day. I've pared down the article a little bit. Will , 22 September UTC. What can I add, other than I agree with everything you have written: history does not turn on the head of a pin. I would have taken this nonsense out-because it is complete nonsense-for the reasons I gave at the outset of this discussion, but I suspected that my edits would be subject to counter-attack by the same cranks who inserted this in the first place.

Can you suggest a way forward? The way meritrious is used is, an adjective which it is, in front of a noun as in meretricious behavior. Go to Merriam Webster onlline Dictionary Paul and you will see what the primary definitian is and what the secondary one. My apologies if I caused any offence. I have a direct way of expressing myself when confronted by what I consider to be nonsense. I have also become only too well aware that there are 'cranks' in Wikipedia, though from your tone I feel sure you are not among them. There is Molotov's statement and research in the archives.

You also miss the argument about the butterfly. It is to demonstrate that in some modeling, the system is very sensitive to initial conditions. That even one butterfly flap in Brazil can lead to a possible tornado in Kansas. The argument is that possibly Hess's flight was such a juncture in History. Speculative, no doubt. But very, very interesting and appropriate in an article about Hess. Ihave pruned the article to meet some objections raised. Didn't even get "that's a good start. It can still be pruned down further. I was the original author, and contrary to all my training admit noting, deny everything I admit I embellished and spun it out, but I have done further editing.

I've now had a chance to look into this question a little more deeply, and am now in a position to report what I have found. Stalin gave a speech, at he conclusion of which he posed a general question about the German army, asking if it was unbeatable.

There are no invincible armies in the world, Stalin continued, and if "Molotov That's it. But on the basis of this-and other very thin evidence-Victor Suvorov publised a paper in June , arguing that Stalin was about to attack Hitler because he ordered a partial mobilisation and because Zukhov produced a plan for offensive depoloyments.

This whole thesis has been completely discredited.